This is the thing about engineering equipment, even if you can get somebody to it. You can't open it up and let 'em tinker with it. It's dangerous stuff. The engineering industry is written in blood. And I'm not being nasty when I say that. That's how, that's, it's a conservative industry. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 77 of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one show focusing exclusively on the intersection of sustainability and supply chains. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and I'm thrilled to have you here. A huge thank you to this podcast, amazing supporters, Kieran Ognev, and Alicia Farag. You folks really help to make this podcast possible. If this podcast regularly brings you value and you'd like to help me keep the podcast going as well, support starts at just three Euros or dollars a month, less than the price of a cup of coffee, and you can find the link in the show notes or at tiny url.com/ssc pod. Now you know how we're always talking about the challenge of explaining complex systems, whether it's decarbonising a supply chain, rolling out new tech, getting stakeholders aligned on major capital investments. Well imagine if instead of flying people halfway around the world to tour a wind farm or dig through endless PowerPoint decks, you could just drop them into the experience virtually, interactively, in real time, from anywhere. That's exactly what today's guest is doing. Matt Trubow helps some of the world's biggest engineering firms, think ABB, GE, Johnson Controls replace outdated communication tools with immersive digital environments. The result, faster decision making, smoother onboarding, and huge reductions in travel emissions and costs. In this conversation, we dig into how spatial computing is bridging the engagement and comprehension gap in industrial sales and training, and why immersive tech isn't just for gaming anymore. It's becoming critical infrastructure for modern supply chains. But before we get into that, in the next few weeks, I'll be chatting with Ollie Carpenter, director of Environmental Risk for Risilience, Conrad Snover, CEO of Procurability, Steve Saltzgiver, director of Fleet Success for RTA Fleet, and Sam Jenks, CRO of Kodiak Hub. But as I said, my special guest today is Matt. Matt, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. I'm Matt Trubow. I'm the Commercial Director and one of the co-owners of a company called Hidden Creative, which is headquartered in Manchester, England. Okay. That's a very strong Mancunian accent you don't have there, Matt. No. Nope. I'm originally from America, but no, I've, I've settled in, in an area near Manchester called Burnley. Very good. And what is Hidden Creative? I suppose if I were gonna sum it up concisely, our mission is to enable industries to communicate the power of their products through immersive technologies that bridge the gap between solutions and understanding. So we, refer to that as the engagement and comprehension gaps. And I suppose what I mean by that is cognition often suffers when demonstrating sophisticated solutions in situ or when being in person is impractical and we have to fall back on traditional alternatives like PowerPoint. So our techniques are, focused on addressing three main pain points, which is communicating hard to demonstrate engineering solutions and doing it better than you could ever do in real life. Keeping teams engaged and aligned the onboarding process, sales training, getting everyone to sing on the same hymn sheet, giving them an easy way to do that. And then there's the ever-growing problem of older engineers retiring and retiring with a wealth of knowledge. And we need a way to transfer that knowledge to the younger generations, but in a way that they know is available. So using technologies and things like that. Okay. And what was the genesis for this, Matt? Who came up with the idea and why? The catalyst was this video that I'm gonna show you, and it's basically, it's not a unique thing when you're a child, to have a fear of needles and vaccinations and that whole thing of your parents bringing you to the doctor and you know what's coming and you're just terrified and all that. I was no different. as normal as the next guy. And this video here is, is a way of using immersive technology to completely and utterly eliminate that terror, that negative experience. No parent wants to drag their child to something they're gonna be terrified of. So to have this, it's not just for the child, it was for the parent, it's for the doctor, it's for the nurses, all of it. It's an amazing thing they've done and they've, what they're doing is they're creating an environment that's so immersive the child almost forgets about the real world. And what's going on in the real world, almost smears into what's going on in this, in this video. So I'll let you, I'll let you watch the video. Este é o VR Vaccine. O VR Vaccine é uma aventura imersiva onde as crianças se tornam heróis Ainda está recebendo espada poderosa. Para fazer isso funcionar precisamos de um equipamento de VR, um smartphone para as crianças, um para a enfermeira e a aplicação vacina de E o que as crianças experimentam no mundo virtual é matado passo por passo, pela enfermeira que segue a história em um segundo screen. Tudo simultaneamente Calming and entertaining children, while helping the nurses to better perform the vaccination. Funciona funciona, funciona! Obrigada! Caramba filho! O que você achou disso? Legal! How good is that? it's a heartwarming thing, but it's like, it wasn't what I was seeing. I mean, I, I, the cartoons are great and etc. It is interesting and entertaining, but it was like, how has that made that child just forget that, whole thing and how they felt so immersed in the experience. I was like, this is gonna change the game. Then I started thinking, you know, I started reading a lot about spatial computing. I really got into that area, and that's I know it's not engineering. That's where I'm comfortable is engineering. That's how we kind of shifted over to the engineering side of things where that's, our main client focus and things like that. But that is really what just blew my mind was that the reaction the human had to it basically. Amazing. Matt. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, I can, I don't know, I was like five or six or something on my cousin's farm and I stepped on a nail and it went up into my foot. And my parents had to bring me to a doctor to get a tetanus shot, and I did not want it. I was, I was happy to put up with getting tetanus. I did not want to get that shot. If I'd had something like that available, it would've made the whole process a lot easier. Definitely. That was the thing about it. It was the, it was the fact that it wasn't so much what I've seen. it was what that human was feeling in that experience rather than what the other side would've looked like. So walk me through now, Matt, the solution that you guys have created to help organisations, not with vaccines, but with their manufacturing and their engineering solutions. Right. it's more about, let me just digress for a second. Okay. And illustrate something in simple, but kind of overwhelming terms. I think most people would agree that a majority of professional communication and meetings is done through the use of PowerPoint presentations, no matter what industry you're working in. Yep. here's some figures that relate to that. I've pulled these up from a, something else I did. But just listen to this, right? So you've got 30 million PowerPoint presentations are created every day. That's over a billion per month. The average PowerPoint presentation contains 20 to 40 slides, meaning that every single day, at least 600 million slides are created worldwide. And there's a point to this story. if all PowerPoint slides created in a single day were printed and stacked, they would reach the height of Mount Everest 10 times over. Now this is ridiculous given the, the general feeling about PowerPoint. Everybody's heard the term death by PowerPoint. The emotion of sitting down and feeling drained when somebody opens a very wordy PowerPoint. This is not about hating PowerPoint. What it is, it's about recognising that it's fighting against human cognition rather than working with it. This is particularly evident in the engineering industry. There are a few reasons for this. You've got things like cognitive load theory, which I'll give you an example of that. You go to a restaurant. It's a lovely restaurant. You've got a great menu. There's tons of stuff to choose from. It's too much. You freak out, you go with a safe option. You order the chicken. You have food envy for the rest of the night. That's cognitive load theory, right? Then you've got things like Hicks Law. So imagine scrolling through Netflix for 30 minutes and you're still not watching anything, All of this contributes to what's referred to as decision paralysis. So when overwhelmed, your brain does one of two things. It either ignores most of the information or it picks the easiest option. Think about ordering the chicken. So at Hidden, we base our approach on what I call embodied cognition, which is in the most basic terms, means the role of experience in learning. Now, learning can be about a solution, a product, a process, anything. It's a theoretical framework within cognitive science that challenges, the outdated notion that learning is purely an intellectual process. It explains that knowledge is deeply tied to physical and sensory experiences. Humans learn best when they can get engaged with content in a tangible like, interactive way. This is even more so the case in engineering as engineerings are tactile creatures. They like to delve into the details specific to them, and they don't view a solution the same way the average person does. An engineer looks at things and you don't just have an engineer. So when you're in, in a meeting and you're explaining something, in the engineering world, you have a lot of different people, a lot of different personas that you're trying to talk to. This is where PowerPoints hit a brick wall because you're just trying to jam information into, into a presentation that's supposed to speak to all these different people, but it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. Mm. what we've created is we've created a platform called Simmerse, which is what you've got is you've got the Industry 4.0 spatial computing. We're not witnessing an isolated trend. This is part of the next major evolution of digital communication, web four oh. The era, era of spatial computing, whether we embrace it or resist it, it's coming. Okay. And it will fundamentally change how businesses communicate. You know, it allows users to step inside of information rather than just reading about it. We aren't gonna just take a big step to spatial computing. It represents the future of how we interact with digital information, but there's steps in between. So VR and AR have their place, but they also come with barriers such as hardware costs, user friction, adoption challenges, all sorts of things. So what we needed was a solution that acts as a bridge, something accessible scalable and immersive without locking businesses into a single format or requiring specialised equipment. It prepares 'em for the future. And that's, that's what we've done with Simmerse. Okay, so walk me through it. If I am an engineering manager in a company and I make, let's let's say, wind turbines. Now wind turbines, they have these big stalk going up. It's not called a stalk, but you know, for all intents and purposes with the staircase going up through it, or a lift going up through it, comes up to a, what's called a nacelle at the top with big gear boxes and motors, and then the, the blades turning. So there's a lot of engineering goes into that. So if I'm trying to show that to people, how does Simmerse help me? Right. So just backing up slightly, but Simmerse, Simmerse is a platform that works through web browsers. It's like teams or Zoom. You can have as many people in as you want. They're not only their video and voice, but they're represented as an avatar because they're in a 3D environment. And I'll show you in a bit. But okay. You know, that's a really good example is wind farms and, and the equipment that goes along with that because it's inaccessible and even when it is accessible, it's dangerous. This is the thing about engineering equipment, even if you can get somebody to it. You can't open it up and let 'em tinker with it. It's dangerous stuff. The engineering industry is written in blood. And I'm not being nasty when I say that. That's how, that's, it's a conservative industry. So taking your example, we worked with a wind farm company. And one of the problems they have is that people don't really understand, even their own employees have never stepped foot in a nacelle. You know, most of them haven't. And it's a great way to do that onboarding aspect, but what I think the power of what we've created is, yeah, it can put you in whatever part of that structure you want to go into. I kind of talk on an onion layer basis. So especially in the in the engineering industry, The engineering industry usually offers solutions that span different industries. So that's the top layer of the onion. Then within that, those particular industries, they have specific solutions. Then you have obviously within, I say solution as multiple products put together to create something that overcomes a challenge. Then you have the individual product, then you have the components, then you might have sub components, and then you have things like flow dynamics. All of these engineering aspects are important to one person or another. So. In an end, like I was saying before, in an engineering environment, especially in a sales or marketing or anywhere like that, you're speaking to different people. Some of them are engineers and those people are very important 'cause they validate the applicability of the solution versus the challenge. But you've also got somebody there from sustainability, environmental issues. You've got somebody you know from finance. You're speaking, you're trying to speak on all these different levels. You can't do that through a PowerPoint. You can't do that in an on-hands demonstration, you cannot satisfy an engineer. You, you know, somebody's gonna suffer. In an immersive environment I have the ability to do anything I want. And what that means is I can also have those different conversations with the applicable person. In the offshore wind farm is a good example because of its inaccessibility. And being able to not only onboard new employees, but to take a customer into that environment, let talk to them in their language and communicate on that basis. Okay, so Matt, said it's browser based. You and I are recording this podcast now using a browser-based platform. You're in Manchester. I'm in Seville in Spain. So similarly, I'm guessing your platform Simmerse can allow people to log into the platform from anywhere on the planet simultaneously and be viewing some engineering device represented that could be anywhere in the world as well. So suddenly you can bring people all into a meeting from anywhere in the world, to check out, to be either onboarded or as a sales presentation or similar, or training, to instead of having to fly people all over and book hotels and all that kind of stuff. So we're saving a huge amount of there on travel and carbon and time as well, because if I have to go to that wind farm, for example, it's probably out in the middle of nowhere, so it could be in another country. I may have to fly there and then get in a, get in a bus from the hotel, stay in a hotel, it'd be driven out to the wind farm and then climb up to the top of it, which in itself is a bit of a task. So we're saving all of that, right? It is interesting that you bring up the human aspects of that 'cause that, that resonates with me because in first year we started this business, I traveled for over 250 days in one year. And you know that, that's ridiculous. That's excessive. But nonetheless, that has a huge impact on a human. And in the, in that sense, let me just share this. All of our clients are huge engineering companies. ABB, Johnson Controls, Baker Hughes, Alstom, GE. There's an aspect of that that is really important to us. We feel a sense of responsibility. I mean, the, the companies that I'm talking about and the people in 'em are doing things that are changing the world. I mean, we understand that deeply and we feel, like I said before, a bit of a sense of responsibility, but going back to what you said before, which is the human factor. Yeah. You know what, I haven't calculated that on, on this. You know, I, I, there is no way to calculate that, but it's priceless. So these things are exceptionally effective in terms of replicating the sales processes, the marketing processes, because they're, they're usable anywhere. So that's the beauty of it.'cause what happens in these engineering companies is you've got a lot of people, but the absolute experts who are crucial to the conversation in those sales situations. At whatever point in that sales timeline, they are, are few and far between. This is what I was talking about, that knowledge transfer. This is a really important thing in the engineering world. And these people aren't always available. So with a system like this, you can have it at an event, you can have it at a meeting, and basically you can go in either on a headset or through a web browser, be in the same environment. So, so. there's a situation where we have a guy that does water treatment plants, he sells water treatment plants. It's something that's a big thing to sell. You have a, have to have a lot of experience and you know what you're talking about when you're selling these things. So if he's in New York and there's something going on in Hong Kong, you've got a bit of a problem because there's not another one of him. Right. He can be there in person basically. And. Do his job or their job, sorry. But the environment itself, it, let me just bring up the environment itself. All right, what you're going to see here is one of the hundreds of experiences we've done for ABB. This is marine imports. And let me just set the scene a little bit. So you, you log in, it has all the, the functionality you need for an engineering environment. There's certain tools that we've built on this platform, so it's made for engineers, nobody else. This is the, this is why it's a specialist tool. And what you're gonna see here is this is a, this is called the AZ pod. This is a, a boat motor, which ABB make, and it's three stories tall. So they don't build them and put them on the shelf and wait for somebody to buy. They're, they're built for purpose. And you could never demonstrate it because of the where it is. And, and basically the motor is for extreme maneuverability. So what you do is you, you obviously, you log into the web experience and everybody can log into the same experience. And pardon me while it loads. So what you're in here is genuine 3D. This is not image imagery or anything like that. And you can embed things like video. So if you have existing collateral, you can, you can embed that in the environment. So. Let me just, what you're seeing here is a live browser based immersive space. It looks like 3D and it is, but it also behaves in a very familiar way, just like Zoom or teams. So you can invite people using the link. There's no need for special hardware or downloads. And what we've done is built in controls, like I said, tailored to how engineering teams actually need to communicate. So I'll just take you around. So. You can go into the environment, you can definitely tell this is very ABB-esque. And over here on the right is the actual Azipod. So what you can do is you can come in and you can interrogate it as you'd like, so you can tear it down like those layers that I was talking about before. You can look at the powertrain, so another layer of the onion and you can go and configure. The variety of ships that it can be applied to. And like I said, it, it's meant for precision. So putting in offshore wind farms and things like that and ABB, we always try to get a bit fancy for ABB, but another aspect of the solution is its simplicity in terms of navigation and things like that. We're trying to replicate what the bridge of the ship might look like if they were to retrofit this new system. Very sustainable system.'cause it's battery operated and things like that. But you're in this environment, you can embed things in the environment. You're there with a number of people. You can speak on all the different levels which is what I was kind of saying before. Services, you know, all these things are gonna be of interest to the different people that you would be speaking to about potential solution to overcome a problem that they have. Okay. And, and just to clarify, it's a bit like you and I now, people can log in from anywhere at the world, anywhere in the world simultaneously. They can converse with each other while navigating, if you'll pardon the pun this environment and look out, check out this, in this case, this electric motor for ships or whatever it might be, have discussions about it, its advantages, its disadvantages, its size. They can tear it apart. Look at the insides. Back out, place it in different ships, as you said, in this case for, for that motor. Or if it's a wind farm, check out the, the insides of it, move up and down the structure, check out the doors, check out the foundations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I, it's got a host of tools for guided tours, spotlighting specific features jumping users between perspectives, but it's flexible. Users can also explore freely, which is really valuable when you know you different people wanna focus on different aspects. So the goal here isn't entertainment, it's structured clarity delivered in a way that adapts to the needs of each team, basically, Okay. And if I use this tool, can I create the environment or is that something that you guys do for me? So this is an important aspect of what we do because I, I don't overlook the fact that I'm asking somebody in a very big company to change their sales process. So that's a big fight to have. Even if they love this, that's still a big fight to have and it's a different way of doing things. You need to be very careful about your onboarding process, teaching people about things. And what tends to happen when people first dip their toe is they learn so much. What we want to do is we want to give people something tangible that they can, if they say, ah, nah, we're not gonna do, you know, after they've tried it, we don't need it. I want them to walk away with something that's useful. So we've got a package called Pathfinder, which is exactly what it is. You know, finding your path in the immersive world. We're trying to pioneer the industrial metaverse and we're doing a damn good job of it. So far, you know, we've got a lot of adoption, but we've learned a lot over that time. One of the things we've learned is that you need to take a baby step before you take a big step. And the reason for that is because, our starting point, it's a, it's a tangible quick, you know, it only takes us like eight to 10 weeks to develop these things. That's what's so beautiful about the platform. It's got the foundations of everything, so you're building on top of it. And it's really rapid development. That's the whole advantage of it. You can get to market quickly, test it, and then we can iterate. So we, we do not, we will not take on a new client typically, unless they have loads of experience with this kind of technology. Without taking them through the Pathfinder program. It's affordable. They have tangible assets they can walk away with. There's no obligation. It's like the easiest way and the most affordable way to get into immersive technology with somebody who's done it hundreds of times. So the risk is very low, and even if they're not satisfied after the fact, or just doesn't work out for them, they walk away with virtual assets, video. You know, there's a whole slew of things that come with the package. And it's not expensive. It's well within the budgets of, even far smaller engineering companies. Really. Okay, and do I then have to supply you with the schematics for whatever it is I'm building? I love your questions. Seriously, this is exact. So like I'll be building you an experience here shortly. You, it's really easy. I mean, you could give us a drawing on a napkin or you could give us a CAD file., We are, like I said, we're not a technology company. We're a company of creative guys and girls that you know, we have expertise in converting cad, but if you don't have these assets, it's not a problem. We, we have the means. We've created stuff from literally people just telling us what it looked like and then working with them to refine it to where they want to get. It's a very simple process. In some senses if somebody wanted to get started, the reality of it is they, they send me their current sales and marketing material, anything else they have on the product, and it doesn't have to be a lot, we'll put together something that fits in the Pathfinder that would absolutely blow them away. Some of the comments I get from people. It's really nice stuff to hear. It's like, this is exactly what this industry needs. When you hear somebody say something like that, that's in engineer. I'm an engineer. You know, I'm not an engineer anymore. I haven't done that in ages, but when you hear somebody say something like that in the engineering world, it means a lot. It really does. When you're, when you're solving that kind of problem, I mean, everybody sees the What you have is you have these solutions that are not getting less sophisticated and you've got a bigger gap to explaining them. You're still relying on old stuff that just doesn't do the job. That's what we're trying to overcome. Okay. And so when I go with Hidden for this, I then get a login. So I can not just use it internally with my own teams for training purposes, for example, but I could also, for example, invite clients in or potential clients in and use it as a sales tool, correct? You absolutely. Can you have all the flexibility in the world. The way we've structured it is scalable. So it's done with, with portals, you know, you can have a number of portals and all, that's considered. What you get is you get a, a management console basically, where you can spawn off a new, if you had a hundred people that were, you know, on your sales team, each one can have their own room. It doesn't cost anymore. You can manage it like that. It's almost one of those ones when I get into a conversation with people about it, I'm like, whatever question you're gonna ask me, just say yes to yourself in your head. It does it. So, but it's not, that's not true. I'm not that, I'm not being cocky about it. I'm just, I love the fact that it does all of these things. Of course, you want whoever's in charge of the sales teams that can be distributed, and it's all managed and people can, and of course you can, you can tag it onto the back end of your website. It's a good way to evolve. So you sell a, a solution that's sophisticated. Why not bring them into this environment? And the thing that we're doing now is, like everybody else, is we're implementing AI. So it can be in any language. So, if you enter from Malaysia, they'll be speaking the appropriate language to you or whatever language you choose. But also with ai. imagine having something like this attached to your website. So you get to the website, you see this particular solution Azipod as it were, and you go into that room, you're greeted by the head of sales as an avatar who has been trained through AI to answer any kind of question you have. And it doesn't matter what persona is he's encountering. Because it could be somebody going, oh, well, alright, I've got a plant that does and I'm not gonna, I'm not even gonna attempt to make up some crazy, you know, things. But could, he could actually give the avatar parameters and say, tell me what the performance would be like here. And we can do dynamic things in the inside the environment to replicate that. Or now I have information, I now know who you, what persona I'm dealing with. So guess what? The whole environment's gonna change just to suit that conversation.'cause that's who we're speaking to. So these are the things, this is the way it's going, this is the stuff that we're doing. But yeah, all the, all the stuff, it, it's not a SaaS product or anything like that. It, there's a massive creative element to it that we've simplified and are very good at because all we deal with is the engineering industry. You ask any engineering, marketing person, the worst conversation they ever have is onboarding a new creative agency because they haven't a clue. And they have probably haven't dealt with an engineering company before. And there are big, big differences to that and there's little nuances that you can know that are important as well. So having somebody that speaks the language, it's, in other words, getting started is as simple as sending me the stuff. We've probably seen it before. Let us give you a little proposal and let's rock and roll and that's it. Okay. Very good. Matt, have you any examples of customer success stories that you can share with us? As a matter of fact, I do, I have a recent one from ABB that I'll bring up on the screen here. We've created a water world is what we call it, and it's basically all the water treatment facility equipment, everything, it's, it is water world as you would think about it in the, in the industrial sense. And, the people we work with at ABB were gracious enough to provide us with some of the statistics.'cause of course they keep a close eye on these things. And overall it was over 3000 hours of total engagement that was either over 1700 on the web through the browser or about 1400 and in virtual reality, which is quite impressive. And this is over a six month period, so, the monthly savings as they calculated, were around $57,000. So an annual projected savings of about $688,000. I don't know how to calculate the carbon on this and it would be an elaborate mathematical problem. But if just take into account the number of meetings that were done in this versus what it would've cost the environment. It's an immense savings. And Matt, where to next with this technology? What do you see coming down the road that's gonna make this even better? You mentioned AI already. Is that it for now? Or is there something else on the kind of horizon that you're seeing that's gonna really kick this off? There's a massive convergence of technologies at the moment. I know you're well aware you're up on this stuff, but it's, I don't know, it's a little bit worrying. But it is exciting and you're right, a AI is probably the main player here and there's a lot of other like the methods that you deliver these, the data to these environments, how mobile devices are evolving. I can't wait until we get AR glasses, but they have to, there's, a, a saying, they have to have the Oakley effect. They have to look like these, they have to, they have to have that form factor that you don't look like. You're a glass hole, with the Apple version. So there are gonna be some things that I don't necessarily think that unless you're on the inside or you're gonna notice, but the convergence that's going on and the acceleration of it through ai, not only directly but indirectly is amazing. The way I envision it, I, I, I just think how long is it gonna take us to get to Star Trek? Big fan? I know I'm a geek, but you know, how long is it gonna take us to get to the Holo holodeck You know, I mean, in reality, if you think of it from a commercial perspective. Eventually you're gonna, we're trying to do for our clients is give them a way to build their own metaverse. Give them the assets that they need to start using the metaverse. So that's, that was kind of what I was saying about the assets they could take away if they, you engage with us, that if they got, you know, didn't want to do it, but that's what we're trying to do is outfit them for the future.'cause you think about like, okay, how does the CRM work in a big company in the ERP system and all that. Right. So I'm a salesperson and I'm sitting at my thing and I, gotta talk to Tom today about upgrading his turbine, you know, in, in one of his power plants. Hit the button, go to the meeting. And what does it do? It replicates the virtual representation of the environment that you are in with the equipment that you've purchased from us with all the statistics, you know, the digital twin of it, not the virtual twin, the digital twin of it. All the statistical information. And we can have a conversation that, a very educated conversation in the environment. Then I can take it and I can show you what it would look like if you upgraded.'cause that's what I want you to do, right? And the whole path and all the things about it, you know. It's just interest. Some of the stuff you come across in the engineering world. It is so interesting, you know, because like there's, one solution. I'm not gonna try to explain it. I just thought it was super clever and there was, there's a lot of companies doing it and the one thing they wanted to focus on and they couldn't get across to people was that, and it, this sounds really weird, but it was the way they packaged it to be shipped and the efficiency behind it, because that was their one competitive aspect. Everything else everybody else did. And I just thought, well, we can show how that, you know, works and, you know, here's your, here's all the cool things about it, but then watch this and the most important aspect of it. You didn't ever guessed that. There's no way you'd ever guessed that. And that was what it was. And it is, it was a big savings, you know, because of the way they did it, but, and it, it is, it is their USP and it, it just wasn't something I was expecting. Sorry to digress, but it thought it was interesting. Very good. Yeah, no, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Matt, is there any question I haven't asked that you wish I had or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of? Oh, what you asked me such good questions, Tom. Seriously. I think that whether you like it or not, or whether, I mean, it's, it is exciting stuff. it's a whole different genre of technology. It's not something we've ever experienced before, you know? And I, I'm 52 so I can remember pretty far back. So. embrace it, try and learn a bit about it.'cause the thing is we, like, we, we talk to people and we're not, we are very humbly. We're there to, to humbly educate. But we are experts. We do know what we're talking about. We've been doing this for a long time. And we know when the penny's dropped for somebody, when they see this technology and when we don't see that we don't really want anything to do with it because it's just like, if you're not seeing the potential, if you're not seeing this, you're not for us. We wanna work with those that see what is coming, want to understand it. We are here to be the guides Hmm. and, what I would say to people is, is reach out and try and find a guide. Not a vendor, a guide. We don't, we're not a vendor. We're a partner when we work with companies. And you need to be thinking on that, on that basis because this is such a big thing that you need to have a partner, not a vendor. You need to have somebody that has the experience to guide you on the course.'cause I've seen a lot of things that the money, could have been appropriated slightly better. So but yeah, I suppose I'd leave it at that. Find yourself a good guide if you, if you're not familiar with this stuff from a commercial perspective, et cetera. Okay. And if people would like to know more about yourself, Matt, or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? To me I suppose I'm, I'm very responsive. If you just want to ask questions, if you need a bit of help you need a bit of guidance to something that you're, you're interested in. I know all the vendors, I know all the the products that are available, and I'm happy to just generally answer questions. My email address is probably the best way to get me. It's Matt, MATT, at hidden H-I-D-D-E-N, limited, abbreviated, so hidden ltd.com. Okay. And is there anywhere online people can see a demo of this?. If they contact me, I, I like to bring people through the demos. We are working on a live demo, but it's. I can show them so much more and explain because yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll take them and show them what's under the hood Okay. as, it were. Okay, great. Matt, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. No Tom, it is always great speaking with you. Thank you very much for inviting me. Speak soon. Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.