Sustainable Supply Chain

From ICE to EV: Transforming Supply Chain with GoBolt

February 20, 2023 Tom Raftery / Marc Ang Season 1 Episode 294
Sustainable Supply Chain
From ICE to EV: Transforming Supply Chain with GoBolt
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Show Notes Transcript

Hey there, Digital Supply Chain fans!

I had the pleasure of sitting down with Mark Ang, the CEO of GoBolt, for this today's episode of the podcast. Mark and I discussed the exciting world of electric vehicles in logistics and what it takes to make the transition to a more sustainable future.

In this episode, we dive into the key insights that Mark looks for from the GoBolt system each day and how sustainability reporting fits into the picture. We also talk about GoBolt's plans for the next 5-10 years, including their goal of becoming almost 100% electric by the 10-year mark.

One of the key takeaways from this conversation is that making the transition to EVs in logistics is not as simple as just buying a new truck. It requires a lot of planning and effort to make it work, including investing in the right technology, people, and processes.

If you're interested in learning more about GoBolt, Mark, or the topics we discussed on the podcast, be sure to check out gobolt.com or connect with Marc on LinkedIn.

Thanks for tuning in and stay tuned for more exciting episodes of the Digital Supply Chain podcast!

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Mark Ang:

We started with our parcel vans and our five ton trucks. It's where we have the most amount of volume today and can make the most amount of impact. So we've got you know, a couple dozen of five ton trucks that are on the road and electric. And we have upwards of 70 parcel vans on the road right now that are fully electric. Our goal is to have 90% of our deliveries done with an EV vehicle by the end of this year, by the end of 2023

Tom Raftery:

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Digital Supply Chain podcast, the number one podcast focusing on the digitization of supply chain, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 294 of the digital supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery, and just before we start, I'd like to take a couple of seconds to give a sincere thanks to everyone who has signed up to become a supporter of this podcast to date. It really helps me a lot. If you'd like to sign up to become a supporter of this podcast, to help me continue creating informative and engaging episodes, just simply click on the support link in the show notes of this episode, or go to tiny url.com/d S C pod. You can make a small donation starting at just three euros. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee, but every little helps. Okay. With that out of the way. With me on the show today, I have my special guest Mark. Mark, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Mark Ang:

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Tom. I really appreciate it. So yeah, my name is Mark. I'm one of the founders and the CEO of GoBolt. We're an end-to-end tech enabled logistics company that's focusing on building a sustainable infrastructure for modern brands, and really excited to be chatting about that today.

Tom Raftery:

Cool. Cool. So tell me a little bit, Mark first about the genesis of GoBolt. What's, what's your origin story? What, what made you as a co-founder decide to wake up one morning and say, I know what I'll do. I'll start Gobolt.

Mark Ang:

It's a good question and it's, we, we've actually rebranded the business three times. If you were trying to google our origin story, you, you may not, you may have to dig a couple feet deeper to figure it all out. But third time's the charm and, and GoBolt is the name that, that sticks. Previously we were both logistics and previous to that was the previous incarnation of our business called Second Closet, which had nothing to do with business to business logistics. It was all about consumer storage and what we were endeavoring to do was build a valley storage solution, which ended up growing to become Canada's largest storage solution, working with upwards of 15,000 active customers at its peak. And we would go pick up people's stuff from their home, whether it's you know, entire condos, four bedroom mansions, et cetera. Store them in our warehouses and then return them either in full or in part to customers when they wanted it. And when you think about that business, what we really built was a three PL for consumers. We built the infrastructure to go do deliveries and reverse logistics, bring it to a warehouse, inventory manage, and then return product. All the same through the same logistics network. And we scaled that business to four cities in Canada and it was a very high gross margin type of opportunity cuz you were taking warehouse space and you were renting it at retail rates. And it allowed us to pay for all this infrastructure and development. And so inevitably we ended up working with decision makers at at large retailers and large brands, and we started to help them with their business logistics. And what was unique about us was that we had built the business on the back of our consumer expertise and margin profile scaled to four sites. And you have this national coast to coast presence that you would never, never have probably otherwise been able to grow if you had started with businesses in the first place. Different kind of pricing dynamic, different margin profile. And so, that's how we, started to transition. And then we just made the decision of, you know, we built second closet to help people expand their space and live a, a more kind of free and unencumbered life. And we were really not serving that need in the market. We ended up being used as a more efficient way for people to hoard their stuff. And Hendrick, my co-founder and I sort of sat around a campfire and said, Hey, we don't wanna really be known as the guys that help people store their stuff and hoard it more efficiently. We really want to flip that on its head. And so if we were to reinvent ourselves, we have this growing business to business relationship division. Let's do that full-time and let's, think of all the things that we want to have a positive imprint on in society. So tech enabled logistics, unencumbered kind of delivery windows, sustainable fleet, and carbon negative last mile. And let's make sure that's at the core of everything that we're doing in this new frontier. Because it, it's not every day you have the chance to reinvent yourself. And so that became very core to our mission and very core to how we've now built the business to where it's today, which is 10 cities across North America hundreds and hundreds of trucks on the road every single day doing. You know, tens of thousands of executions. We're really fortunate to have seen the growth over the past, you know, three and a half years or so that we've done the B2B thing. Over the six years that we've been doing the business end to end.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, cool. So who now are typical customers and what is it you're doing for them?

Mark Ang:

Yeah, it's a great question. So we work with a variety of, businesses, big and small. So we have some Fortune 100, fortune 500 clients that store their product with us. We pick, pack, and ship it and we either ship it through our carrier network or re ship it first party in our own trucks and vans. And uniquely Tom, we can support large products and small product alike. So most sites and most three pls will specialize in one, given our roots. We built expertise and technology to help support both. So that trickles down to like the wms, the order management system, certainly the tms and how we flight orders into, into that network. And so a company can come to us and say, Hey, we have these like connected fitness equipment. We have spin bikes and treadmills, but then we also need you to pick and pack our water bottles, towels, and apparel line. And we can do both, and we can then order, orchestrate that across our network and provide a much better customer experience for their shopper. So those are the types of companies we work with. Everything from home goods, like so home and garden industry, apparel some pharmaceutical, now and, and more, more in the healthcare space and and everything in between.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And what sets you apart from other people in that space?

Mark Ang:

I think there were really three things that differentiate us. The first is that it's first party, the second is it's tech first and the third, certainly, most importantly, I think for ourselves and and for the market now, is that we have a sustainable view of how we wanna do things. So on the first party piece, everyone in the Gobolt supply chain is an employee of the business that's like fully benefited and employed by us. And we think it's important because, our associates are the folks that show up at the doorstep of the shopper and represent our brand and represent the brands that we, support. And so we like to take care of our teams so that they, take care of our, shopper experience. The second is tech first. It lets us integrate faster in a more robust way, with better reporting, better guardrails, and really develop solutions versus try to fit square pegs into round holes, right? If you've ever had to integrate with a WMS or tms, kind of what you see is what you get, and really, that's it. It's a one-way street, and you better just be driving at that direction and, and at that, speed limit. For us, we can like wind the road, we can turn it around, we can add an on-ramp and off-ramp. There are a lot more things that we can do to help make the experience better from a tech perspective, which underpins the operation. And then finally, the electric vehicle infrastructure and the, the sustainable view of how we do things that is core to how we are as younger founders and the imprint that we wanna leave on the world. And I think more and more decision makers at businesses and more and more brands are starting to vote with their wallet and their volume on the types of businesses they want to support. It's no longer about capacity and only price, it's there are other dimensions that are now folding into the equation and businesses that are now making, choices as their brand identity gets more resolved. And I think we're able to come forward and be one of those options that they now have the opportunity to choose if they want to vote and say sustainability is important to them and to their employees and to their shopper.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. Talk to me a little bit about that, that sustainability angle, because you said you have lots of trucks on the road, and then you mentioned an electric truck fleet or an electric fleet. So how many trucks do you have? How many are electric? What's your plans there? Why did you decide to go that route? If you'll, pardon the pun.

Mark Ang:

Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a good question. And then puns are very welcome. We, we have a few hundred vehicles in the fleet ranging from five tons, three tons and, and parcel vans. And so that's just what we've grown to support our volume and that, that number will be probably a couple times the size by, by this time next year. We've placed an order for upwards of 320 EV vehicles that are being delivered right now or are already on the road. So that, that is broken up into a few purchase orders. We started with our parcel vans and our five ton trucks. It's where we have the most amount of volume today and can make the most amount of impact. So we've got you know, a couple dozen of five ton trucks that are on the road and electric. And we have upwards of 70 parcel vans on the road right now that are fully electric. Our goal is to have 90% of our deliveries done with an EV vehicle by the end of this year, by the end of 2023. And so what that means is that we're gonna continue to be placing orders, continuously be installing infrastructure to help support our, our eventual outcome.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And do your customers care?

Mark Ang:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, let, let's tackle that in two dimensions. You've got the customer that t his is like really core to their brand ethos, really core to either their founders, their executive team, their customer base, or the market that they serve. And we're able to now align their scope three emissions within their, emission portfolio to be fully electric. And so, it lets them help us accelerate our goal to be a hundred percent electric and it lets them to vote with their wallet. And then outside of all that, even if you have some that's purely financially driven, we're able to remove things like fuel surcharges from the cost equation. And so net net you'll likely enjoy some level of efficiency regardless of your point of view, by choosing to go with GoBolt, because our infrastructure is set up in such a way that that is just not, not a consideration for the last mile. And so whether you're doing it for the right reasons, or whether you're, you know, not looking to promote it and not looking to make this core to what you want to show up in, in the, in the market. There are actual financial advantages to, to making the move to us as well.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. I, I want to dig into the EV bit, just a little because. Your kind of pioneers in this space. I have a theory that fleets are going to flip to electric really, really quickly when they see the savings that accrue to running an electric fleet versus a petrol or diesel fleet. But it's, it's a theory. It's, it hasn't been proven yet, and you guys are out there ahead of most other fleets in that you're moving to electric. You want 90% of your fleet to be electric by the end of this year. That's pretty ambitious. Can you talk a little bit about your experience of shifting your fleet to electric? I know you haven't shifted it completely yet, but I mean, what are the kind of challenges you faced in doing that, and what are lessons learned?

Mark Ang:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a good question. There's a concept with scale-ups and, and companies where innovation is at the core of what they do. Which is to fail fast. And you know, we don't believe in no win scenarios, but the principle of trying things and experimenting is the prevailing one for us. And so with EVs, we've approached it from a first principle standpoint as well. It, if it is, can be thought, it can be done. And so let's figure out the ways in which we do it. And with a physical infrastructure, which is what I think most of the market thinks, is all that you're doing, you're just buying an EV off a lot, installing a charger and plugging it in, and that's it. Those companies will fail and those will fail very quickly and very, very fabulously. There's actually a lot of technical aspects, like systematic aspects that go into managing EV fleet as well. It's not as easy as get it off the lot and plug it in. There's driver training and difference differences in how you onboard, train and source drivers that can run with EVs so you can fully benefit from their range. I mean, Tom, as you know, I think you, you've gone through a few EVs in, in your driving career now, and so when you take your foot off the gas or the, the pedal off the accelerator, should say, your regenerative breaking kicks in and you don't need to apply the brake. Just at the very end when you wanna actually come to a full stop, you apply the brake. And so that can probably juice out 50% more range. If you weren't doing that, you just travel that much less kilometers. And for us as a logistics business, that impacts how much, you know, road density and how much road efficiency we can achieve. So there's a practical driver data consideration, like how does Tom drive within one of our trucks? What route should we put Tom on so we can successfully complete it? How much load is going in that EV vehicle versus the battery charge that it has? Then with that in mind, what truck should we assign to which route? There's a lot more consideration that we're building software around Tom that we think will help be the operating system for EV fleets, whether it's ours or whether we work with other logistics companies. We really wanna leverage what we've built at scale to help just really move this electrification forward. And the obvious question might be why? Because as more people take on EV trucks, the general infrastructure around it just gets better. The ecosystem evolves and matures faster, and we're motivated to see that happen because we would be a recipient of that. Now, right now, full stop. EVs are extremely expensive to operate. The cost of tuition and learning is extremely expensive. The cost of the vehicle itself is expensive. The charges and the infrastructure investments are expensive. So there's a lot of things that are just going around here. And so the question might be bagged, well, why are you guys doing it? And you're probably not in the best position to do it, versus someone that's got billions in their coffers. This is our end state. We know that we're gonna be there. We're consciously making the investment to, to accelerate that and, and we're okay with some bumps and bruises along the way.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And what about the challenges of, well range and charging. In terms of range, for example, have you identified which vehicles are best for which route based on the, the range of the vehicles? Are you range constricted? What kind of range, you know, vehicles are available to buy today?

Mark Ang:

So you can get a vehicle that has a hundred kilometers, 200 kilometers, 300 kilometers. And you know, our vans are a good example. They come in those breaks because each battery is worth about a hundred kilometers. So, you can have one, two, or three, and that impacts the price of the vehicle. Now, if you're a simple operator, you might say, okay, well just gimme the, the three battery vehicle and I'll use that and just not have to care. And Bob's your uncle. The problem is that then you have to pay for those two extra batteries and, and those are not inexpensive. It also creates a lot more weight to the vehicle. So, if you don't need to use it, you shouldn't, because you'll get more out of the, the remaining battery use. So, Within that kind of realm, you need some sophistication around like, what are my average route lengths? Where should I allocate vehicle A, B, or C? All things that we're working to build into our operating system, so that scales through our software. But you're bang on, like range is a, big thing. The last thing you wanna do is tow a vehicle back. I remember when we first launched our EVs our tow truck bill went from $0 to many thousands of dollars to tow these, five ton trucks because you can't do it with one of those regular tow trucks, you need one of those trucks that's like the size of a bus because they're just so damn heavy. And because they're EVs, some people don't wanna touch them because the batteries need to be treated as and handled a certain way. So, you know, we bucket that into the tuition line item of, of learning how to operate an EV infrastructure scalably. Because of our rate of change in adoption and learning, we've been able to successfully document that learning and, and playbook it. And so we feel like we're in a much better spot now. Pleased to say that tow truck line item is now back to zero, but it wasn't for some time.

Tom Raftery:

And what about availability of EVs? Because I know I had to switch vehicles last October when I went from an ID four to a Kia Niro and I had to get one secondhand because the waiting time for a new one would've been six to eight months, and I didn't have that time to wait, so I went secondhand out. It was fine. I got a, a vehicle with 10,000 kilometers on the clock, so it was nearly new. But still you guys, you're, you're buying out a fleet. So it's, it's a different, whole different scenario.

Mark Ang:

Yeah, no definitely not something that you just do willy-nilly. You definitely need a plan. The delivery times are, are lengthy, and so if you want something by end of year, like you, you'd best have already placed the order. And so, as demand increases, that'll probably only worsen. So you really need to kind of get your orders in and forecast your volume appropriately. You'll read a lot of headlines of like, so-and-so orders a hundred thousand trucks and so-and-so orders 66,000 trucks. And those are great headlines. Those are being delivered over like a decade plus. So, they're actually not hitting the road like tomorrow. And I, and I think if you don't peel back the onion on it, there's a false sense that there's actually that much production power available, but which is not the case. So. Yeah, we, we just need to plan ahead. It's, you're looking at like six to nine months lead time. We placed a lot of these orders a quarter or two ago, like the 320 number I quoted earlier which is like our most up-to-date number that we, we've POed. Those were in at the end of q3 last year. So already kind of four months into that time. And we're gonna start to receive them towards the end of this quarter Q1.

Tom Raftery:

In terms of data are EVs, do they provide more data to you as the operator versus a traditional one? Are they exactly the same? Is the data useful?

Mark Ang:

I think it's all about how you tap into the, to the system and, and pull out and visualize that information, right? Like if you have a problem with your, your gas vehicle. You can like buy this thing on Amazon that plugs into the mainframe and tells you what's wrong with it. So it saves you like 500 bucks in mechanic. So pro tip, for all the listeners, you know that $60 investment could save you thousands. Just taking it to the mechanic. So all that data's there, you just need a way to extract it. Same is true for an ev. It's there, and because they're newer, there's a lot more current data in it. And because of the EV ethos, there's a sense that it needs to be more tech than it, than the not. And so we certainly get access to a lot of embedded benefits like telematics, battery level, degradation average average speed with the platform of the vehicle itself. And then we can pull from that API into our operating system so that we can then build it, store it, and assign it to drivers, assign it to routes, and better understand how did this truck behave with this driver, with this much payload from these customers? And that's important because what we wanna bring back to our enterprise merchants is an ability to say, Hey, out of a hundred percent of the deliveries that you give to GoBolt, 60% of them are done with an electric vehicle traveling this many kilometers. The other 40% are done in an an ice vehicle traveling x, y, Z kilometers. And it, it lets us better embed ourselves into the reporting structure here, because that's another big consideration is how do you surface this data externally and reliably. And, and we're looking to try to be at the vanguard of that as well.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And you mentioned your own operating system. I'm, I'm guessing you don't have a GoBolt os operating system like Windows and, and Mac Os, and that it's kind of, uh, but you, you did say you're a tech first company as well. So talk to me a little bit about the, the tech that you guys are deploying, not just EVs, but you know, throughout the organization and why that sets you apart.

Mark Ang:

Yeah, it's a great, it's a good question, Tom. So when you think about the life cycle of a product, let's just say it's a widget the widget inbounds into our warehouse. And this is like if you use all of our services, you will book and schedule an appointment at one of our sites through our wms. We'll approve it, schedule it we'll be on deck to receive it. Our receivers will scan it into our system. Our engine will tell it where to go in the warehouse based on its velocity. So we'll put it in the best place for storage and for picking and packing. Then when we go to pick it, our pick app will route our pickers in our site in the most efficient way possible. We'll then pack it. When we're packing it, we'll be rate shopping, various providers, including ourselves to choose the best option for our customer. And then we will select that. And if it is a GoBolt parcel van or truck it'll go into that, that staging ground. We'll then sort it through our sortation service. And then when it's on the road, customers will benefit from real time vehicle tracking, where you'll see where you are in sequence. A prediction of when will arrive. An ability to kind of give us any kind of updated delivery information. And so that's sort of like the front facing merchant and shop reviews. On the back end, the reason I call it an operating system is we have a lot of things that manage our fleet. The cube of the vehicles, the range, whether it's electric, whether it's not, tie it to the telematics so that in our simple one screen view of a city, we can see all of our trucks and how they're traversing through the city at what speed, who is in it. And then we can pull all that into our, our data warehouse and, and, and make sure that we can then manipulate the data to, to draw meaningful insights. So it's this like really comprehensive ecosystem that spans our wms, our tms, and our oms. And then we pull all those data points back into one central repository so we can work with it.

Tom Raftery:

and is that a homegrown system?

Mark Ang:

Yeah, yeah, that's been fully built from the ground up. Like I said, my co-founder, Hendrick, he's our CTO and has been building this from scratch, so we've got like a complete view and complete malleability over the system from, from start to finish. And that's where it's not a one-way street. When I was talking about the on ramps, off-ramps, the swirls, et cetera, we can really control how we flow order traffic, and how we want to manipulate and manage it. And that's really important when you wanna partner with brands to drive an outcome. So it might be we want more EV infrastructure to service our orders, or we wanna reduce the amount of time traveled you know, from a warehouse to the customer. There's a lot that we can now do to, to leverage our full infrastructure across all of our 10 cities, to help, achieve certain outcomes for our, our merchants.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. And what are the key kind of insights that you look for from your system on a, you know, on a morning you come in and you, you fire up the system. What is it you're looking to find?

Mark Ang:

So I, I think if you ask that question of different people in the business, they'll, they'll each give you a very different answer. For me, I look at percent of EV deliveries and how that's trending over time. All cumulative EV deliveries. As well I look at our efficiency you know, For us to provide a really good competitive price, we need to be as efficient with our labor as possible. I look at our u our units per hour, our deliveries per hour, and our appointments per hour. And then I look at I look at overall volume of our system. Those are the sort of like the handful of, of things that I, I obsess over. And then my ops team they, they look at a lot more granularity. They go down to like an associate level to see who's our best performing driver, who's our best performing associate, how do we put them into a training program where they're a training ambassador. How do we, you know, praise and recognize 'em for doing great work. So on and so forth. So, it, it gets pretty granular as you go kind of into the operation.

Tom Raftery:

Okay. What about things like sustainability reporting? Are you doing that as well?

Mark Ang:

Yeah, so because we operate EVs and ICE vehicles and, you know, there was a time when we were only ice vehicles. We had actually really good baselines on how many kilometers we travel, how much fuel we consume, et cetera, et cetera. So we've got a great baseline of what are we avoiding in terms of emissions? And then what do we then spend to offset the emissions that exist still? We also understand distance traveled, payload traveled, and so we can better attribute the emissions to an order level a little bit more scientifically. So we've worked with some external consultants that have helped us build a more robust model that attributes everything in our business down to a single order level. Cuz that's really the the gold standard of, of how you can do it. The problem with a lot of the things on the market today is that they're oversimplified. Now because we run the operation, our software powers it, we're pulling all those data points. And so that's a really rich environment to be in, to be able to kind of produce a really accurate number that you, you'd feel comfortable publishing externally. Sustainability reporting is there. It, it, it, it starts at quantum of, of ev. The most simplistic is like percent of EV delivery share. But then you really wanna dig into like, okay, what about EV impact and offset versus ice? And then that's where we pull in the rest of the data.

Tom Raftery:

Yes. Okay, cool. And where to from here, Mark, what? What's kind of on your five to 10 year plan for GoBolt? You know, apart from global domination,

Mark Ang:

Right. Yeah. Apart from that, so, the, the reality is, I mean, that, you know, even five years would be doubling our existence, and, and 10 years would be tripling. So it's, it's hard to fathom what we'll accomplish in that timeframe. I, I think the team will do big things. Certainly we're gonna be doing a lot more of the same, so we're gonna be doing a lot more investment in our EV infrastructure by the, certainly by the 10 year mark, we should be almost a hundred percent EVs. And I say almost because there's always a frill delivery or lane that is just too long to service with with an EV for now. Assuming battery technology improves at the rate it's been, I might, I might have to bite my tongue on that. But, but a lot more of the same. We hope to continue to be first party, sustainable first, tech first, fully densified North America. Likely have operations in Western Europe and and other commonwealth countries and bringing more of what we wanna do with our brands internationally. As we continue to move out, market and support Fortune 100 and 500. There, there demands to see us expand to their other global footprint and those are soft requests now, but we want to answer that call certainly within that timeframe.

Tom Raftery:

Cool, cool, cool. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now Mark, is there any question that I haven't asked that you wish I had or any aspect of this we haven't covered that you think it's important for people to think about?

Mark Ang:

This is the toughest interview question. You know, when you're, when you're going for a job and you're being recruited, it's just like. It's putting the onus all on the other person to, to think on the spot. I, I, I actually think you've, we've done a great job covering all of our bases. I mean, I think the really key takeaway is that, in involving EVs in your logistics infrastructure is not as simple as cutting a check and getting a truck off a lot. That's actually the easiest part. It's the, the people, the technology and everything that has to wrap around that to really make it work. And so businesses or brands that want to have this be part of their transition strategy to manage Scope three emissions, need to be thinking about those things. I'm happy to be a resource and so to the extent that anyone wants to reach out on LinkedIn or otherwise we're, we're more than happy to share what we've learned so far and hopefully better the industry over time.

Tom Raftery:

Nice. Nice. Cool, cool. Mark, if people would like to know more about yourself or GoBolt or any of the topics we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Mark Ang:

The easiest place would be gobolt.com And then from there you can probably snake around and find what you need to, and, and if not you can always hit me up on LinkedIn.

Tom Raftery:

Sweet. Okay, Mark, that's been great. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Mark Ang:

Yeah, I really appreciate it, Tom. Thanks for having me.

Tom Raftery:

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about digital supply chains, simply drop me an email to TomRaftery@outlook.com If you like the show, please don't forget to click Follow on it in your podcast application of choice to be sure to get new episodes as soon as they're published Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find a show. Thanks, catch you all next time.

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